The Fellowship of American Bibliophilic Societies (FABS) was founded in 1993 as a “society of societies” whose members are the clubs themselves. As members of The Manuscript Society, you have already “joined” FABS.

You, as a Manuscript Society Member, receive the twice-yearly publication, the FABS Journal, containing member club news as well as scholarship and musings of interest to the book-and-paper crowd.

This month’s zoom interview blog hosted by Jennifer Larson, FABS Chair. Her guest: Barton Smith, Past President, and society representative to FABS.

Enjoy this wide-ranging interview with Barton on collecting, his collection, building a collections, things to watch out for and more.

The FABS interview post is live now at: http://www.fabsocieties.org/collecting-manuscripts-a-conversation-with-barton-smith

Thank you, Jennifer, for this lovely interview.

About FABS

The Fellowship of American Bibliophilic Societies (FABS)

The goals:

increase fellowship among clubs,

share ideas to improve our respective organizations, and

“to further the social and intellectual enjoyment derived from the larger world of books.”

FABS is a unique national and international society of bibliophilic groups. It is the first and only one of its kind. FABS study trips hosted by member societies have wafted participants on magical mystery tours to visit institutional libraries, archives, binderies, printers, book artisans and private collections in Philadelphia, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, Seattle, and many other cities. With the advent of Covid, Zoom and other teleconference platforms became a lifeline for booklovers, and FABS societies have risen to the challenge of providing their members with excellent virtual programming. In the process, the bibliophilic world has become more accessible and inclusive.

FABS maintains a calendar of events (most open to the public) at http://www.fabsocieties.org/events/month/. Our e-Newsletter, Joie de Livre, provides a digest of upcoming virtual events, FABS news and blog posts. To receive Joie de Livre, visit fabsocieties.org and sign up on the newsletter page.

The post Barton Smith on Collecting – Interview appeared first on The Manuscript Society.

Allen Ottens

Perhaps as you’re reading this piece, you can hear some familiar tune faintly in the background. Maybe it’s the beguiling strains of “Begin the Beguine” or the rousing “Blow, Gabriel, Blow.” Whichever it is, it’s likely coming from the Cole Porter Room in the Indiana Historical Society, our venue for this Road Trip feature. Allen Ottens speakers with IHS Suzanne Hahn, vice president of the archives and library.

What should we know about your collection?

The IHS Library preserves and shares one of the largest collections on Indiana and the Old Northwest. We have nearly 2 million historical photographs, early maps, business records, personal papers, family and civic organization materials, and much more. Laid end to end, our collection would cover more than 6 miles.

Madam Walker driving an automobile. Madam C. J. Walker Collection, Indiana Historical Society.

Tell us more about some of your noteworthy items.

The IHS mission is to be “Indiana’s Storyteller.” Our collection seeks to illustrate Hoosiers from a variety of eras, geographic locations, and backgrounds.

We hold the largest archival collection documenting Madam C. J. Walker, whose hair-care products for African American women made her the wealthiest self-made woman in the country. (Editor’s note: She’s the subject of the Netflix series Self Made, which started streaming March 20.)

Our Civil War collections include diaries and letters from nearly every Indiana regiment. Of course, Indiana also was the home of Abraham Lincoln (after Kentucky, before Illinois). We have an incredible collection of Lincoln images and an early sum book page Lincoln completed as a schoolboy in Indiana. Recently, too, we acquired one of the largest collections documenting Indiana LGBTQ history.

If we visit now, what exhibits will we see?

Our award-winning Indiana Experience is an innovative way for visitors to experience Indiana’s history. The You Are There series invites visitors to step into a recreated image or document from the IHS collections. Destination Indiana features more than 300 time-travel journeys.

Visitors can catch a live performance in our Cole Porter Room. (The great Broadway composer was born in Peru, Indiana.) Of special interest to Manuscript Society members, the W. Brooks and Wanda Y. Fortune History Lab provides a rare opportunity to go behind the scenes of a real conservation lab and explore the technology used to preserve IHS collections.

Throughout the year, IHS offers a wide variety of programming. It runs the gamut from bourbon tasting at Indy’s Premier Bourbon Celebration and a summer concert series to the Hoosier Women at Work conference. That’s not to mention Whodunit, a life-sized, Clue-inspired experience when visitors team up to solve a murder mystery.

What are some of the noteworthy titles from IHS Press?

The IHS Press has been publishing books since the 1880s. It has won a Pulitzer Prize and been nominated for several Grammy awards. One of my favorite titles is Mapping Indiana: Five Centuries of Treasures from the Indiana Historical Society. It beautifully presents some of the significant maps in our archives. The press also publishes historical fiction for children, family history books, and two award-winning periodicals: Traces of Indiana and Midwestern History and The Hoosier Genealogist: Connections.

Whom should members call to arrange a visit?

Contact Amy Vedra, director of reference services, at 317-234-0321. The Indiana Historical Society is open Tuesday through Saturday, 10 a.m. to 5 p.m.

Can’t make the trip in person? Visit https://indianahistory.org to explore the Indiana Historical Society and its collections

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Kevin Segall

William Fliss, Archivist of Special Collections and University Archives at Marquette University. Curator, J. R. R. Tolkien collection

 J.R.R. Tolkien Collection – Marquette University

KS: What was your background before becoming an archivist at the Marquette libraries and how did you begin your career?

WF: My background was in history. I was training to be a history professor but then decided I did not want to continue down that road.  As an historian, I most enjoyed doing research in the archives. This led me in the direction of becoming an archivist. I saw it as a way to indulge my love for historical records. So, I acquired the Master of Library and Information Science (MLIS) degree, which is the primary accreditation now for archivists. I have spent almost my entire career at Marquette. I have resisted ascending to the position of unit head either here or elsewhere because I have noticed that these roles involve becoming a middle manager who spends most of his time dealing with personnel issues and little time actually interacting with the stuff!

KS: Have you ever been a collector yourself?  If so, of what?

WF: I avidly collected certain toys as a child, but I have not collected anything as an adult. I think there are two reasons for this. The first is that early in my adult life I moved quite a bit, and so I developed the lasting habit of not accruing that many possessions. The second reason is that my work as an archivist satisfies any propensity in that direction. I collect all the time, but not for myself; and I am perfectly fine with this arrangement.

KS: What are the origins of the Tolkien collections at Marquette?

WF: When Marquette University built a new state-of-the-art library (indeed the first stand-alone library in the school’s history) in the mid-1950s, it hired William Ready from Stanford University to be the library’s director. Ready had a talent for stocking libraries with books and manuscripts. Since Marquette is a Jesuit school, Ready decided he would try to collect the papers of Catholic authors. He identified Tolkien as somebody whose manuscripts he wanted, and so he hired a friend of his in London, a rare book dealer, to act as Marquette’s agent in negotiating a sale. This was late 1956—soon after publication of The Lord of the Rings but before that work became a phenomenon. Tolkien sold the manuscripts to Marquette for about the equivalent of a year’s salary as a professor at Oxford. Marquette had the good fortune to be the first to ask! It may be one of the greatest manuscript acquisitions in history.

KS: Do you have any favorite items in your archives?

WF: The Tolkien manuscripts at Marquette consist of over 11,000 pages of material. My favorite aspect of the collection is not confined to a single item or handful of items. What I most enjoy is the organic, evolving interconnectedness of all the manuscripts, especially as seen in successive drafts of chapters and scenes. If I had to pinpoint a single favorite individual item, I would say that my favorite is always changing. At present my favorite would probably be a page of doodles from late summer 1938 when the Tolkien family was on holiday in Devonshire and the author was jotting down plot notes for The Lord of the Rings. This item was shown in the BnF’s (The Bibliothèque nationale de France) Tolkien exhibition last year in Paris, but the image was not included in the exhibition catalogue.

KS: Is there any unique coursework at Marquette that takes advantage of the Tolkien collections?

WF: Although the Tolkien collection has been at Marquette for over 60 years, only in the last decade have there really been any significant courses at Marquette devoted to Tolkien. I think this is because there used to be a prejudice against Tolkien in the English department. He was not seen as part of the literary canon. That has changed completely. One of our English professors periodically teaches a course on Tolkien, and some students have used the collection for their final papers. I have had the opportunity to teach my own freshman honors seminar on The Lord of the Rings. It is limited to 12 students. We sit and discuss Tolkien each week, and I work the manuscripts into the instruction.

KS: Have there been any books, films, or other projects that have taken advantage of the Tolkien archives that you’d like to highlight?

WF: Many scholarly books and articles have drawn from material housed in our archives. A question I always get is did Peter Jackson visit Marquette when he was doing his movies? The answer is no; however, some of the talking heads on the ‘extras’ DVDs for those films have visited Marquette. One of the most interesting visitors I have encountered in my time at Marquette was a crew of Canadian filmmakers that did a documentary called Conlangers, which focuses on people throughout the world who have constructed their own languages. The documentarians did not intend to visit Marquette, but as they talked with these “conlangers” (as they’re called) from around the world, they discovered that Tolkien inspired many of them. So, the filmmakers decided they must include a segment on Tolkien in the film.

KS: Is there any plan or effort to digitize your holdings in the Tolkien collections?

WF: Yes, the entire Tolkien manuscript collection has already been digitized. Because of the copyright situation, the scans must be consulted at Marquette. They cannot be shared online. The scans are part of an enormous project to digitally reprocess the Lord of the Rings manuscripts to make them easier for researchers to access and navigate. It is still ongoing and has proven to be a herculean undertaking (but a lot of fun as well). If anybody is interested in learning more, please read the third section of an article (https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1157&context=mythlore) I wrote a few years ago for the journal Mythlore.

KS: What advice do you have for young people interested to become a special collections archivist?

WF: I would offer three pieces of practical educational advice. First, become as technologically savvy as possible. I see the role of archivist becoming more and more a hybrid blend of traditional archivist and IT professional. Second, study how to be a project manager. Much of my work has been project-driven, and I would have appreciated being instructed at the outset on how to effectively plan and implement a project. Instead, I have learned most of what I know the hard way through trial and error. Third, read up on Emotional Intelligence. Being able to effectively manage your own emotions and accurately interpret and respond to the emotions of others is an important skill in a profession where the archivist is increasingly a team player working alongside colleagues in other departments and disciplines.

KS: What are some of the more interesting changes that Tolkien made from his working drafts of The Hobbit and LOTR?

WF: As a writer, Tolkien would sometimes stop and jot down plot notes on where he saw the story going, although when he got there he often went in a different direction. In the case of The Hobbit, it is clear that Tolkien originally intended to have Bilbo Baggins slay Smaug himself by sneaking up on the sleeping dragon and then stabbing him with his little knife! As for The Lord of the Rings, the most significant change in my opinion concerned the character of Aragorn. In the original drafts, the hobbits do not meet a mysterious man named Strider at Bree. Instead, they encounter a mysterious hobbit named Trotter who then leads them to Rivendell. Tolkien eventually decided to turn the hobbit Trotter into a man. This broke the story open in the sense that Tolkien was now able to work in other material he had been developing about Númenor and the Men of Westernesse. Aragorn became the last kingly heir of that exiled people. Without this change, there would have been no king to return at the end of the third volume!

KS: Karen Wynn Fonstad authored the celebrated Atlas of Middle Earth; and Ruth Noel authored The Languages of Tolkien’s Middle Earth as well as The Mythology of Middle Earth. Does your repository try to collect original manuscript maps, and manuscripts by authors such as these, and other authors, in support of your Tolkien collection?

WF: We try to collect everything published on Tolkien each year. We have not actively sought out manuscripts by Tolkienists, although original maps, drawings, and artworks have found their way into the collection over the years. I am moving toward actively collecting the papers of prominent Tolkien scholars. I am not so much interested in the manuscripts of their scholarship, unless these are unpublished, because the published version suffices as the most mature expression of their thought. (Researchers are interested in studying the drafts produced by Tolkien himself, but drafts by Tolkien scholars? Not so much.) I am very interested in the correspondence among Tolkien scholars because I believe that the history of Tolkien Studies itself will eventually become an area of scholarly interest. Marquette also documents Tolkien Fandom, which is a whole other story, and way beyond the scope of this newsletter!

KS: Before his death, what kind of contact did you have with Tolkien’s son, Christopher Tolkien? What was the general nature of those contacts?

WF: I did not have any direct contact with Christopher Tolkien since becoming the Tolkien Archivist in 2012. I dealt with him through the Estate’s solicitor. Most of our exchanges related to issues of copyright and permissions. However, in the 1980s and 1990s, Christopher Tolkien had a close working relationship with the Marquette Archives because he relied on us for assistance as he researched and wrote certain volumes within his magisterial 12-volume History of Middle-earth series. If people are interested in learning more about this, they can read a recent In Memoriam piece (https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2898&context=mythlore) I wrote about Christopher Tolkien on behalf of Marquette.

About the Interviewer

Kevin Segall is a board member of the Manuscript Society and a member of the Tolkien Society. He is a bibliophile and collector of pop culture memorabilia. He and his wife Stephanie are owners of the Historic Winston House in Los Angeles and he can be reached at kevinsegall.com

The post J.R.R. Tolkien Collection – Interview with Curator appeared first on The Manuscript Society.

Alfred Lemmon, Director of Williams Research Center, HNOC

BH: What does your position as director of the Williams Research Center entail?

 AL: One of the aspects of my job that that I thoroughly enjoy as Director of the Williams Research Center is the variety of activity. It is a twofold job. One portion is internally focused: The acquisition and care of our diverse holdings. The role of acquisitions is particularly thrilling – the locating and evaluation of appropriate materials. Care is very inclusive – from ensuring that materials are properly catalogued to ensuring their physical safety and availability for future generations. The other portion is “outreach” or making our holdings known to the public. “Outreach” is very broad. It can include everything from publications (electronic and print), public presentations, special evenings for donors and programming of a wide variety of educational events. I am very fortunate to be part of a wonderful team to accomplish those goals. Our staff is traditionally multi-talented and being part of such an organization has permitted me to grow and do things I never thought possible.

 BH: When did your love of manuscripts begin and when did you decide that working with manuscripts was going to be your life’s work?

 AL: It was not a conscious decision. I have always attracted to research, even in my undergraduate days. Fortunately, during those years I had the opportunity to attend a lecture by the great French historian Marcel Giraud on early Louisiana. While the topic was not particularly exciting to me at the time (early Louisiana), his presentation was a critical moment in my life. He spoke without notes in perfect American English. He held a large audience captive for probably 90 minutes. I have never forgotten his presentation. Later, I chose to obtain a master’s degree in musicology, which of course involved research. I had the opportunity to work in the French National Library and in the Bavarian State Archives. During my doctoral studies, I worked in a wide variety of archives in both Latin America and in Europe. I was greatly influenced by two individuals. The first was Rosaria Parra Cala, Director of the Archive of the Indies. She was very kind and carefully nurtured my introduction to that wonderful institution. A UNESCO World Heritage Site, it contains documentation on all of the former Spanish overseas possessions (and more). Similarly, Marie-Antoinette Menier of the Section Outre-Mer (now the Archives nationales d’outre-mer) of the French National Archives introduced me to the French archival system. I did not decide to work with manuscripts as a career until my early 30s when I came to The Historic New Orleans Collection. Initially, it was just summer work. However, I enjoyed it. I was offered a regular job.  Fortunately, the institution’s leadership invested in my training and continuing education. So, I owe many people a tremendous debt of gratitude.  I have learned much from the Manuscript Society, in particular, the behind the scenes tours of repositories that participants have during the annual meetings. I have been able to incorporate what I learned on these tours into our activities at The Collection.

BH: How did the importance of France and Spain in the history of New Orleans affect your decision? Was the international aspect of your job one of the things that attracted you to it?

AL: Reviewing the development of my career, I can simply say that I took advantage of every opportunity that was given to me. I feel I am very lucky in that I have probably received more opportunities than most people. Concerning the international aspect of my life, it sort of evolved naturally and its roots can be traced to my childhood. My maternal grandfather’s brother was a diplomat in Southeast Asia. As a child, I have vivid memories of Ambassador Joseph Caffery, who served, among other posts, as Ambassador to France. Likewise, I have memories of Mr. Ben Thibodaux who was charged with implementing the Marshall Plan for Europe after World War II. What is amazing is that all of this occurred in Lafayette, Louisiana in the 60s. At the time, it was a rather small town in Southwest Louisiana with a population of 40,000. My parents were very anxious for me to “see the world.” As a result, by age 21, I had visited 18 countries in Latin America, Western and Eastern Europe and the Middle East. When I came to The Historic New Orleans Collection, my background was recognized and I was put in charge of two microfilming projects – one in the French National Archives and the other in Spain, particularly the Archive of the Indies. With those two projects, it was only obvious that other opportunities on the international scene would develop.

BH: Are you fluent in French and Spanish?

 AL: I would say I am fluent in Spanish and can navigate very well in French. I also learned German. Of the three languages I studied, German was the one I learned the best. I actually spoke German rather well. However, it is largely dormant today. I was a terrible student in Spanish. As a child growing up in Southwest Louisiana prior to the renaissance of the French language, we enjoyed classes but were not encouraged to speak in public. Ultimately, I learned Spanish and French on the “street.” My linguistic faux pas are both legendary and highly entertaining. When asked to give a presentation in French or Spanish, I often wonder if the people inviting me are more anxious to hear about any knowledge of the topic I may accidentally have or if they need the comic relief that my now-legendary linguistic faux pas will inevitably provide.

BH: You have been involved in curating some important exhibitions. Could you tell us a couple of your favorites?

AL: I have really not served as a curator of that many exhibits. With my colleagues, I have been involved in some exhibitions that I think have been significant for differing reasons. The exhibition “Common Routes” was in the final stages of development when Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans in 2005. What I remember most about it was the wonderful support of the cultural heritage institutions in Spain and France that contributed loans. Tracing the influence of Saint-Domingue on New Orleans, it relied heavily on significant loans from foreign countries. Not a single museum or archive cancelled their loan. Instead, they saw their loan as a contribution to the recovery of New Orleans. The exhibition actually opened only six months after Katrina. The exhibition “A Fusion of Nations” (2003) was a high point for me. All of the treaties concerning Louisiana were displayed with wonderful portraits of the various individuals who signed them. My current focus is an exhibit opening in October 2020 devoted to Spanish New Orleans and the Caribbean. New Orleans is so identified with France (due to the name), that people overlook the enormous impact of Spain. Even in the French period, the proximity to the Spanish cities of Havana, Vera Cruz and Mexico City resulted in very close relations between New Orleans and the Spanish world. During the Spanish period (the second half of the 18th-century), New Orleans became far more developed. However, it is not often recognized. Hopefully, the exhibit will provide a re-evaluation.

BH: You are a longtime member of the Manuscript Society and you have been at the Historic New Orleans Collection since 1981. What changes have you seen in the manuscript world and how do you see the future of manuscript collecting?

AL: The resources currently available to collectors, both individuals and institutions, are radically different. I remember patiently (or perhaps it is better to say impatiently) searching for information available in American Book Prices Current. Yet, with the introduction of the internet and the resulting explosion of electronic tools, the world changed radically. Likewise, I remember studying dealer catalogues immediately upon arrival. The idea of the variety of resources currently available “online” was inconceivable. Yet, with all of those resources, several things remain constant. The necessity to thoroughly read and examine manuscripts prior to acquisition. While it is certain that you will eventually know far more about the material, if you do not know the basics of the “who, how, what, why, etc.,” one should not consider the acquisition of the item. Another thing is to remember the necessity of being able to understand auction prices. Were there circumstances that influenced the price? For example, did an individual who missed out on an item offered at one auction pay an outrageous price at the next auction. Were there problems with phone or internet connections? Was the item a “sleeper” and hidden in a dealer catalogue or auction? Was it not described properly in the catalogue? We also have to remember that many major items are sold privately and never enter the publicly known record. So, while collectors have far faster and more efficient tools today, some aspects remain the same. I have known a few people whom I consider to be exceptional collectors and I have been deeply impressed by their dedication, knowledge and willingness to sacrifice to develop their collections. I grew tremendously by having the opportunity to work with them. I probably learned more about collecting from them than any workshop I took.

BH: Some of us have had the pleasure of hearing you play the organ at St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans. How does this fit into your life?

AL: Well, that is rather simple. I originally trained as an organist. Even though my career has taken, ultimately, a very different path, it has remained a constant, and very large part of my life. Today, I started work with the Cathedral’s current Young Artist in Residence. Each year an advanced student from the Paris Conservatory is selected to spend a half year at the Cathedral. The program is now in its 11th-year and a high point in my life is serving as a “mentor” to exceptionally talented people who eventually hold very prestigious positions. At The Collection, we recently had an Aeolian Organ restored. Designed for use in homes, these organs could be played by humans or, as an alternative, could play organ rolls (very much like piano rolls). Very few of these organs survive unaltered (if they survive at all) and only a handful are in museums. Fortunately, the one in The Collection’s recently opened Signouret—Brulatour exhibition center, remained “untouched” since its mid-1925 installation in the building. I was very fortunate to be able to participate in such a project.

BH: Do you have any upcoming projects that you would like to share with us?

AL: At the present, in addition to the Spanish exhibition, I am involved in the development of a research portal of the French National Library devoted to French materials concerning America.  Obviously, there are numerous institutions involved.  Working with such distinguished colleagues has been a very enriching experience.

About the Interviewer: Beverly Hill is a manuscript consultant, and a former president of The Manuscript Society. Contact Beverly at bhill@manuscript.org

Collecting Conversations:

Each issue of the Manuscript Society journal, Manuscripts,  includes an interview with a collector, archivist, dealer, educator or another who has and is making a contribution to the world of collecting. This conversation is from Issue #1, 2020.  Included in this issue of Manuscripts are the articles, “Discovering that an oil painting is just a very special ALS: How my love of history, autographs, and manuscripts contributed to my writing a book, Tyree: Artist of the South Pacific,” by Scott Mubarak; “A Remembrance of Jules Massenet, Sibyl Sanderson, and the Creation of Esclarmonde,” by Russ Simbari; and “John Gilmary Shea and a Triumvirate of Acclaimed American Historians,” Scott S. Taylor. These are just some of the wonderful articles and information available to all members of the Manuscript Society. Join us Today.

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Harold Holzer @ Matt Capowski

In 1996 Harold Holzer received the Manuscript Society Book Award for his Dear Mr. Lincoln: Letters to the President. Our award is only one among many bestowed on Mr. Holzer, which include the 2015 Gilder-Lehman Lincoln Prize and in 2008, the National Humanities Medal. No doubt Manuscript Society members will be familiar with some of the many other books he has authored or co-authored on Lincoln and the Civil War era such as Lincoln at Cooper Union and The Civil War in 50 Objects. Now Holzer, who serves as the Jonathon F. Fanton Director of the Roosevelt House Public Policy Institute at Hunter College, has authored a new book entitled, The Presidents vs. The Press. It is garnering avid reviews, including one from presidential historian Michael Beschloss, who deems it “a sweeping, groundbreaking, and important history.” Therefore, we were thrilled when Mr. Holzer consented to devote part of his 2020 Labor Day weekend to respond to interview questions posed by past president Al Ottens. We think you’ll enjoy his candid comments.

Al Ottens (AO): Mr. Holzer, would you give us an encapsulated description of your book—what the reader will encounter?

Harold Holzer (HH):  I think readers will find that when it comes to the battle between the presidents and the press, what’s old is new again: that is, Donald Trump’s tirades are unprecedented only because they are amplified so often on the Internet. In truth, ever since the Jeffersonian press began subjecting George Washington to brutal political and personal attacks beginning in the third year of his first term, the “media” and the chief executives have had an adversarial relationship. John F. Kennedy fully understood this: we’re not meant to be pals, he cautioned his staff (even as he maintained close and beneficial friendships with journalists). What’s more, several presidents, including Adams, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, and Nixon have all cracked down harder on the press than Trump has—compared to them (not to give him ideas), Trump is all bark and no bite. I think readers will discover too that, at least as I see it, the presidents who have succeeded best as communicators are those who have made themselves available, and dealt both professionally and congenially with the press while concurrently developing alternative means to go around the press corps and speak directly to the public through new technologies. Those are the points that constitute, as journalists might put it, the “takeaways.”

AO: What drew you to this topic or motivated you to write this comprehensive and heavily researched book? 

HH: Well, I had very much enjoyed researching and writing my 2014 book Lincoln and the Power of the Press and it was hearteningly well-received. So I decided that a combination prequel and sequel was in order, at first just to see if Abraham Lincoln’s own crackdowns against the press were historically unique. The more I thought about expanding my inquiry, I realized I had some valuable experience beyond my willingness to do research that I might apply to such a project. I once worked (albeit briefly, as a very young man) for a newspaper, and later spent part of my career as a political press secretary, for Bella Abzug, in Congress and in her campaigns for U. S. Senate and Mayor of New York City; and for Mario Cuomo, in his own race for mayor and in his gubernatorial administration. I thought I could bring the right combination of professional experience and research background to explore this subject from many angles. Plus I’ve spent the last five years of my career as Director of the Roosevelt House Public Policy Institute at Hunter College in New York, where I’ve been happily immersed in all things FDR. Roosevelt House is actually the Manhattan town home in which FDR, Eleanor, and his mother lived for the 25 years before he left for Washington to assume the presidency. It was here that Roosevelt gave what amounted to his first fireside chat—I work two floors above that fireplace! It was here that reporters massed during the 1932-33 transition waiting for briefings from the president-elect, yet agreeing among themselves not to photograph him struggling on his leg braces, using a wheelchair, or being lifted in and out of automobiles. That was a complicated relationship I definitely wanted to explore. It was working in FDR’s home that really inspired me to reach beyond my lifelong focus on Lincoln.

AO: What overall conclusions did you draw about presidents and the press from all your research and sources?

HH: My research suggested that tension between presidents and the press is the norm, not the exception, and that open hostility breaks out occasionally, almost inevitably: everything from interference with the post office (Jackson), labeling disobliging reporting as “fake news” (TR), and finding new, high-tech means of going around the press (FDR with radio and Donald Trump with Twitter). I learned that presidents other than Donald Trump have castigated the press, and that some have cracked down harshly: Adams by enforcing the Sedition Act; Jackson by appointing a friendly journalist as Postmaster General (who in turn contemplated banning the flow of anti-Jackson newspapers through the Post Office); and Lincoln by authorizing the shutdown of more than 200 Democratic newspapers during the Civil War and imprisoning opposition editors without trial. Wilson and FDR censored news during the world wars while creating formidable propaganda machines to maintain public support for the fighting, and for all his much-touted transparency, Barack Obama limited access by the press and wiretapped reporters who printed leaked information—citing the same 1917 espionage laws that Wilson had used. I came away from the project reminded powerfully that it remains crucial to have an independent press covering the president. As Jefferson put it (even though he enjoyed making life difficult for opposition editors, too), the free press was the “tocsin of the nation”—it’s most crucial alarm bell against threats to liberty. Accordingly, journalists have ever been alert to attempts to chill coverage—from the crusaders who covered Richard Nixon to the terribly maligned, so-called “enemies of the people” who try so hard to hold Trump to account.

AO: In Letters to Lincoln you relied on ink-on-paper sources. The Presidents vs. The Press required relying mostly on sources such as interviews, newspaper accounts, audio and video recordings, Tweets, and emails. Did you have any feelings or preferences for working with the traditional document sources or an assortment of information and media sources?

HH: I must say that I prefer examining manuscripts and newsprint to poring over audio and video tapes, twitter records, and interviews. It may be that I’m just more comfortable with the past than the present—and maybe I just like the tactile process of doing in-person archival research. I certainly miss the libraries and archives that have been closed for so many months during the pandemic. But I did very much enjoy talking to some of the people who have experienced this eternal struggle, including President Clinton and newsman Jim Lehrer, in what might have been his last interview about covering the White House in general. It was really the first time in 50 years that I’ve interviewed people for publication—since my days writing for the long-gone Manhattan Tribune. Of course, archives can be consulted on many different platforms these days. I also found a wealth of material, for example, in the typescripts of the news conferences held by Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt in the era before such events were recorded. Those were just fascinating. I read all 998 from FDR.

AO: You discussed Washington’s draft of his Farewell Address which contained a bitter diatribe against the “Gazettes of the United States” for printing their “malicious falsehoods” against him. This paragraph did not survive the subsequent revision of the address done by Hamilton. Somehow this important handwritten insight into GW’s feelings survived. Much to the delight of manuscript collectors and historians. Did you personally examine this draft of the Farewell Address? Were there any other relatively obscure yet revelatory handwritten notes, diaries, speeches, letters, etc. that you came across in your research?

HH: I must confess I did not see the actual handwritten draft of Washington’s address—the one containing his grievance against the press. As comfortable as I am with original materials from the Lincoln era, I would be almost afraid to ask to touch Washington’s Farewell Address—not that I actually believe I would be allowed to handle it. In fact, this question reminds me that I want to address a serious concern I’ve been seething about for a couple of years now. It’s getting increasingly difficult to call for original manuscripts—from anyone, much less Washington—at public repositories. If the material exists on microfilm, scholars are discouraged—forbidden, really—from examining the originals. I found this to be the case when I tried using the Daniel Chester French Papers at the Library of Congress. Here I was, working on my 53^rd book, a veteran who’d long enjoyed almost unlimited access to original sources at the LOC. But now I was compelled to use microfilm: very upsetting and very discouraging, not just for me, but for scholars everywhere, now and especially in the future. Microfilm is no substitute for the original stuff; I can’t begin to tell you how many unexpected things I’ve found in the original Lincoln papers by turning a page, or looking at an attachment—a handbill, a newspaper clipping—that had never been photographed for microfilm. As for your question about notes and diaries, I very much liked using John Quincy Adams’ diary for the first time, and of course the Jefferson and Washington papers online. FDR’s one and only press secretary, Stephen Early, left his papers to the FDR presidential Library at Hyde Park, and it proved another treasure trove. I don’t think too many researchers beyond Early’s biographer have used that material. I did consult one unpublished, handwritten private note from one past president—I won’t identify him here; it’s in the book—and I quoted from it because it beautifully illustrated a point about battles between presidents and the press. This book also required me to use published memoirs—many of them pretty obscure—by several generations of White House newsmen. These proved great fun and yielded wonderful quotes, I must say. But you made a telling point earlier: much research for this book was spent in front of my computer, watching the press conferences of Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, and on and on…and on.

AO: The role editorial cartoonists play in politics is hardly touched upon in your book. Yet some like Herb Block of the Washington Post tormented Richard Nixon. Any explanation for their omission?

HH: I think you may have missed my comments throughout the book on editorial cartoons. For example, I talked about the many lampoons of Teddy Roosevelt—the artists loved him because his face and posture were so easy to caricature. I wrote about David Levine’s brilliant riff on Lyndon Johnson’s uninhibited display of his appendix scar: Levine converted it into a map of Vietnam. And I acknowledged the damage done by cartoonists after Jimmy Carter claimed he had beaten off a killer rabbit on a Georgia lake. The killer rabbit cartoon everyone remembers was a takeoff on the movie poster for Jaws—showing a bunny swimming menacingly to the surface, above the caption: Paws. Aside from these and a few more (for example, Wilson caricatured as a professor) The book focused intentionally on the role political editors and White House correspondents played in this relationship—so I will argue that the balance was right.

AO: “Dirty tricksters” have been used during presidential campaigns to get the media to print dirt on opponents. For example, Lee Atwater, an aggressive and highly creative campaign manager, tried to get the media to plant stories about Michael Dukakis having been treated for mental illness. What is your take on the role some have played in the president/press relationship?

HH: I tried to focus on what the presidents did in office—not while campaigning—but some dirty tricks were irresistible, including one astonishing episode in which the Nixon re-election committee contemplated putting LSD on the steering wheel of columnist Jack Anderson’s car to impel a delirium-stoked traffic accident, perhaps even death. But staying with Nixon, a good deal of his chapter is focused on the 1972 campaign—itself a big dirty trick, meaning Watergate. Subsequently, the Reagan team may have pilfered Jimmy Carter’s briefing book before their first TV debate. So, yes, dirty tricks are part of the equation, but the focus remains fixed on how the press covered the presidents, and how the presidents dealt with the press. Else I fear the book may have been 1,000 pages instead of “just” 500!

AO: The clash between the Federalist and Republican presses seemed akin to what we see now between Fox News and MSNBC. You quoted JFK saying about the press, “Always remember that their interests and ours ultimately conflict.” It appears that nowadays only a portion of the media conflicts with a sitting president. Any thoughts about how this might continue to play out in the future?

HH: I definitely think that we’ve entered an era quite similar to the one that encouraged uninhibited partisan coverage in the late 18^th and early 19^th centuries, a press culture of praise-for-reward that continued into the Jacksonian and Civil War eras and beyond. In those days, newspapers were cogs in political machines; editors ran for office and office-holders ran newspapers. When new presidents came into office, they chose official “organs” to reap the rewards of success, providing them with jobs, access, and lucrative government printing contracts. Like newspaper readers of an earlier period, today’s news consumers seem to view only media that conform to their views and now, as in the past, they are hearing only what they are already disposed to believe. The one big difference between now and then is that in the past, partisan newspapers openly, proudly declared their association with political parties and leaders. Today, both Fox and MSNBC insist that they are covering the news straightforwardly. Of course, they’re doing nothing of the kind. There’s nothing wrong with partisan coverage, per se, but for goodness’ sake, make the obvious clear! As for the trolls and bots and extremists lurking on the web, their presence and their influence really frighten me, as a historian and a citizen—but that’s another story. I’m just glad that I don’t have to do research into conspiracy-theory websites. That’s where I draw the line. I’ll never go there.

AO: With the U.S. on pace to become a “majority minority” nation, are non-white media sources being underestimated for their role in politics?

HH: Non-white media have always been underestimated—that is, by most white people. Lincoln was smarter: when he tired of the editorial criticism in Douglass Monthly, he offered its editor, Frederick Douglass, a military appointment to encourage black recruitment. Douglass never got the commission, but he did that valuable work, and in the bargain suspended publication of his famous newspaper. In the FDR era, press secretary Steve Early—descendant of a Confederate general—barred black journalists from presidential press conferences for 11 years! His excuse: there was room in the president’s small, crowded office only for reporters from daily papers, not weeklies—knowing full well that the black press of the day was largely composed of weeklies. Meanwhile, the administration worked hard to get the black press (and the black readers who voted) to abandon their longtime fealty to the Republican Party, the party of Lincoln, and join the Democrats. And ultimately it succeeded. Most of today’s leaders do seem to understand that the media is bigger than the big dailies or even the big cable networks. Bill Clinton adroitly courted the black press. The Spanish-language media, meanwhile, is another growing force to be reckoned with. Ethnic papers have always been powerful–they almost sank Wilson because of his early anti-immigrant statements. And criticism in the black press has certainly injured Wilson’s reputation for emphasizing racism, which included avoiding the black press and, on one infamous occasion, behaving rudely to an African American reporter who somehow managed to gain access.

AO: Any speculation about where we are headed given the threats to the information we receive from the rise of doctored videos, misuses of Facebook and other social media platforms, cyber-attacks, and ultra-aggressive independent “news” sources such as InfoWars?

HH: If I were a betting man, I’d wager that we’re going to witness a degree of oversight and regulation that we haven’t seen in generations, at least where the Internet is concerned—that is, Facebook and Twitter, which have both been transmitting worthless and dangerous junk in the name of unfettered freedom of expression, and of course, huge profit. I don’t think we’re headed for another sedition law, which John Adams enforced, under which journalists could be prosecuted merely for ridiculing the president. But I do think the big online platforms will have to find a way to separate free speech from hate speech, political argumentation from outright lying, and the free flow of information from foreign interference. I can only hope the tech giants find a way to police themselves, which I think we’re already beginning to see.

AO: Is there a sequel to your book which might focus on how the press treated losing presidential candidates such as Al Smith, Barry Goldwater, or James G. Blaine, for example? That might make very interesting reading.

HH:I hope that suggestion is meant as a compliment—meaning there might be an appetite for more research and writing on this topic. But not from me (famous last words). Honestly: I didn’t even cover all 44 presidents this time. I didn’t think people really wanted to read about John Tyler, Millard Fillmore, and Warren Harding (although their press experiences do interest me). But, honestly: James G. Blaine? Besides, I’m already committed to another project for my new publisher, E. P. Dutton: a book on Lincoln and immigration. I think there’s a good deal of history there that needs to be told, and with it, inspiration and guidance for the future. And yes, the manuscript sources are rich and irresistible. I’ve already dug deeply into the papers of Carl Schurz—those written in English, that is. I’m gratified that the publisher has offered a budget for translation services—so this will be another new challenge and opportunity.

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